COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)

Inquiry into Young People not in Education, = Employment=20 or Training (NEETs)

14 April 2010

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:

Mrs Dolores Kelly (Chairperson)
Mr Peter Weir (Deputy = Chairperson)
Mr=20 Paul Butler
Mr Trevor Clarke
Rev Dr Robert Coulter
Ms Anna = Lo
Mr=20 David McClarty
Mrs Claire McGill
Mr Pat Ramsey
Ms Sue Ramsey =

Witnesses:

Ms Caroline McCracken	)
Mr Chris Quinn	)	Northern Ireland Youth Forum
Mr Neil Symington	)

The Chairperson (Mrs D Kelly):

I welcome Chris Quinn, transitional director of the Northern Ireland = Youth=20 Forum, and his colleagues Caroline McCracken and Neil Symington.

Included in the Committee papers for members are the terms of = reference for=20 the inquiry into young people not in education, employment or training = (NEETs),=20 which may be useful for those of us who are new to the Committee. As = part of its=20 inquiry, the Committee has already heard from a number of groups, and, = following=20 on from the formal event that the Committee hosted in February to launch = the=20 inquiry, it is hoped that members will travel to Wales and Scotland next = month=20 to see examples of projects that feed into the NEETs strategies in those = areas.=20

You are very welcome this morning, and we look forward to hearing = what=20 inspirational ideas you have and how those might be taken forward.

Mr Chris Quinn ( Northern Ireland Youth Forum):

We are very happy to be here today. As I speak, my colleagues are = circulating=20 our paper among members. One is a report on NEETs that, through = consultation=20 with our membership, staff and executive, tries to pull together some=20 information for the Committee. The other is our presentation, which Neil = will go=20 through in a few moments. The paper breaks the issue down into the terms = of=20 reference as specified in the documents that we received.

The Chairperson:

Thank you very much, Chris. Normal procedure is to spend five or 10 = minutes=20 on the presentation, which allows time for members to ask questions or = make=20 comments.

Mr Quinn:

In that case, I will pass over to Neil and Caroline.

Mr Neil Symington ( Northern Ireland Youth Forum):

NEETs is an important issue for us, and, as Chris said, we welcome = the=20 opportunity to come to the Committee. We meet young people from across = Northern=20 Ireland, particularly those within the specified age range, and we = encounter the=20 NEETs issue all the time.

Let me begin by presenting an analogy, which has relevance. We are in = the=20 middle of a recession, which is supposed to be lifting, although I do = not=20 believe it. I have a =A310 note, and I offer it to anyone in the room = who wants=20 it.

Ms S Ramsey:

We cannot take bribes. [Laughter.]

Mr Symington:

It is not a bribe.

Ms S Ramsey:

You owe me money from about 20 years ago.

Mr Symington:

I will owe it to you.

Would anyone like this =A310?

The Chairperson:

Of course people would take it.

Mr Symington:

You do not know the history of the =A310 note. It is about 16 years = old, but=20 you do not know its history. Let me tell you its history, and then you = can make=20 a decision. This =A310 has a colourful background. At the age of eight, = when it=20 was in P5, it was expelled from primary school. It was one of the first = primary=20 school children to be expelled. At the age of 11 or 12, it was admitted = to a=20 mainstream secondary school. It did not do too well there either. It = found it=20 difficult to sit in school and had anger issues. It attacked a few = children in=20 the class and a few teachers as well. It got involved in crime at the = age of 13,=20 and stole its first car at the age of 15. Ever since, it has been living = a life=20 of crime, and it has been in all sorts of difficulty. A few attempts to=20 intervene have been made, but none has worked well. My question now is: = do you=20 still want this =A310 note? Anyone?

We have entitled this presentation, =91Worth and Opportunity=92. We = believe that=20 the =A310 note, even with such a colourful background, is still worth = =A310. It will=20 still get you =A310 worth of food in Tesco, as would another =A310 that = we do not=20 know the history of. That has a bearing on what we want to talk about. = We meet=20 young people all the time who feel that they have no worth at all, and = that is=20 the biggest issue for the inquiry. Our question is: who will provide the = support=20 or opportunity so that those young people can once again feel a sense of = worth?=20 We have called the presentation =91Worth and Opportunity=92 because you = can have all=20 the worth in the world, but, without opportunity, you do not get too = far.=20 Likewise, with all the opportunities in the world but no sense of worth, = you do=20 not get too far. That is what we want to talk about, because it is a = critical=20 issue.

I want to reflect on my life and on the lives of some of the young = people we=20 have met, so our presentation is rather anecdotal. For that we = apologise, but=20 the Committee probably knows the statistics far better than we do.

Let me begin with the predictable careers talk. When I was in fifth = year, at=20 the age of 15 or 16, there were 90 pupils in my year. Each of us was = asked which=20 youth training programme (YTP) scheme we wanted to do. There was no talk = of any=20 of us going to university. It was not on the radar. Most worryingly, it = was not=20 on the radar of the teachers or the principal either. We were asked = whether we=20 wanted to do joinery, catering or another trade. At a school five miles = away,=20 pupils were filling in universities and colleges admissions service = (UCAS) forms=20 and planning what A levels they would do. We were all from the same = areas, but=20 all we were doing was planning what YTP scheme we wanted to join. There = is=20 nothing wrong with YTP schemes, but that is all that we were being = offered.

That had an effect on us. At a very young age, life was set out for = us. I=20 went on a catering course because I knew that people always need to eat = and that=20 I would always have a job. It was as simple as that. At what age do you = stop=20 having dreams of being all those wonderful things? Even if you dream of = being a=20 superhero, at what age does it stop? That is what we want to talk about. = There=20 are many reasons for that, and they are critical to this inquiry.

We want to talk about self-limiting beliefs and the lack of role = models for=20 many young people. Opportunities are limited in certain areas, rural and = urban.=20 Many young people struggle in school. There is a division among schools. = Even in=20 Belfast, there are schools whose pupils are absolute geniuses and know = exactly=20 what they want to be and where they want to go, while at other schools = there are=20 pupils who do not even care where they live. The division is huge; it is = the=20 greatest inequality that we face.

There are also personal issues and community issues, and it is = important to=20 consider how they are dealt with and how they can be overcome. I have = already=20 talked about how we were laughed at in school if we talked about going = to=20 university.

Before we finish, Caroline will talk a little about the hedonistic = lifestyle.=20 Young people tend to live for the moment, and tomorrow does not matter = too much=20 to them. We come across so many young people whose lives are just about = living=20 for the moment. There is nothing out there for them. They ask: where did = my=20 dream go and how did I become worthless? At what age does that happen? = For=20 different people, it occurs at different ages. There is also negative=20 reinforcement that tells them that they are not worth much.

We were asked to look at how those factors impact on young people. We = find=20 that the impact is that young people lack confidence, self-worth and=20 self-belief, are less likely to gain meaningful employment or training = and have=20 a greater chance of experiencing poor physical and mental health and = long-term=20 unemployment. It is no coincidence that our mental health is in the = state that=20 it is in. Unemployment and a lack of meaningful training are strongly = linked to=20 poor mental health, and a lot of research could be carried out on that = link.=20 Young people become harder to reach and motivate and less likely to have = goals=20 and aspirations. They may enter a cycle of deprivation. I used to talk = about=20 third generation unemployment: it is now probably fourth generation. = People drop=20 out of numerous training organisations, placements and NVQ after NVQ. I = know=20 that the Committee spoke to officials from the Department for Employment = and=20 Learning (DEL) earlier, and they will be aware of the issues.

My short story involves a group of young people who attended one of = our=20 residential events in August, after the GCSE results came out. I asked = various=20 young people what they were going to do. One young fella said that he = was going=20 to tech next year as he was going to take up a trade. I asked what trade = he was=20 going to take up =97 this is his plan for his life, his career =97 and = he said that=20 he was getting =93a lucky dip=94. I asked what a lucky dip was. He = replied that his=20 daddy was going down to Workforce Training Services on the Springfield = Road to=20 pick something for him. That lad had no idea what he as going to do as = his=20 life=92s career =97 upholstery, catering, joinery, mechanics or = whatever. His dad=20 was going to pick it for him.

I move on to the reference to =93joinery in September and catering by = November=94=20 in our presentation. The Youth Forum has done a lot of work in recent = years, as=20 have I in my past employment, with training organisations, such as = Workforce=20 Training Services, Springvale Training and Paragon Training, and with = education=20 other than at school (EOTAS) programmes, alternative education providers = and=20 young people who have been expelled from school. We have found that,=20 particularly in the Training for Success models, young people might do = joinery=20 in September, catering by October and something else by November. They = are=20 flipping courses. A lack of placements for young people is one reason = that they=20 drop out of tech and school. I do not know the statistic, but the = drop-out rate=20 in further education (FE) colleges is huge, and that needs attention. =

Training for Success is not meeting real needs. Some young people = face severe=20 difficulties. We provided a democracy programme for young people on the = Training=20 for Success programmes in Larne, Carrickfergus and Antrim. I remember = thinking=20 that the issue was totally irrelevant to those young people. The issues = relevant=20 to them are the huge problems with drugs and alcohol and lack of = self-belief =97=20 their heads were way down near the ground. Therefore, Training for = Success was=20 not meeting their needs.

What has worked? We run a programme on community change called Making = it=20 Happen. It is based on Paulo Freire=92s work in South America, = particularly in=20 Brazil, which focuses on everybody having the ability to solve their own = problems. That belief must start from within a person and work outwards. =

Springboard programmes have worked well. They are funded by DEL and = the=20 International Fund for Ireland (IFI). The Youth Action community = leadership=20 programme has also worked well. Job Assist centres have been successful = in west=20 Belfast. Others successes have been the Bytes project; Drive for Life in = Ballymena; volunteering schemes; the Prince=92s Trust team programme, = which works=20 with young unemployed people and young people employed in the Civil = Service; and=20 the Time for Change programme, which is run by Challenge for Youth. I = could go=20 on providing great examples of good practice. However, they are sporadic = and in=20 bits and pieces.

In our submission, I talk about the uniqueness of youth work, because = we are=20 youth workers from youth work organisations. Therefore, we believe that = the=20 introduction of youth work skills in England, Scotland, Wales, America = or=20 anywhere else has led to hugely significant change. Why is that? It = starts with=20 the belief that all people have potential and everyone has the power to = change.=20 Taking that as our starting point places all possibilities for growth = within a=20 meaningful and trusting relationship where there is mutual respect, and = it meets=20 young people where they are at, with no predetermined outcomes. When = your job is=20 to get someone a job, sometimes you are not meeting that person=92s real = needs.=20 Youth workers work in a way that attempts not to judge, and youth work = can be=20 creative in how it meets young people=92s needs. A programme=92s design = is based on=20 a person=92s needs; each programme can be completely different, = depending on the=20 person. Youth workers are ideally placed to deal with young people who = are=20 identified as NEETs. Youth workers work with those people every day, = perhaps not=20 in an employment capacity, although they constantly deal with employment = figures.

What is the impact of youth work on young people? It provides = opportunities,=20 and, again, they are vital. I would welcome research into personal = development,=20 training and jobs, because if it were not for youth work, I would not be = here=20 today =97 I would not have gone to university and studied to be a = professional=20 youth worker. Youth work and social work have a huge impact on young = people who=20 are becoming professionals in their trade. Youth work creates role = models for=20 young people and helps them to create an identity. It encourages = volunteering,=20 and it helps young people to find a career and develop a sense of = self-worth.=20

We end by suggesting a five-point way forward, and those points are = detailed=20 further in our paper to the Committee. The first point concerns = investment in=20 transitions programmes at key stages in a young person=92s life, in or = out of=20 school. Children in P6 and P7 are at a particularly critical stage, = given that=20 there is so much uncertainty at the moment. I have a daughter in P7, and = this=20 year has been an absolute nightmare for her. It is important to identify = the=20 issues facing young people who are already struggling at that age, and = probably=20 even before that. There must be dedicated resources. We run a programme = called=20 the P7 power experience, which, up until now, has required no funding. = It has=20 only ever been delivered in Ballymena, the area that it was piloted in. = That=20 programme has huge benefits for young people who are making the = transition to=20 post-primary education.

The second point deals with resources for teenagers in school and out = of=20 school and with identifying young people who are at the edge. It refers = to=20 alternative education provision, which has been vital in meeting the = needs of=20 young people who perhaps do not fit into the formal education system, = who are=20 struggling or who, for whatever reasons, have been expelled from school. = The=20 organisations involved in that provision are doing fantastic work, = again, with=20 little or no money.

The third point states that relevant professionals should ensure that = the=20 most marginalised young people are not allowed to fall through the net, = as has=20 happened all too often. The integrated services model operating in = England,=20 which is being piloted in west Belfast, tries to catch those young = people and=20 get them working together. A one-stop shop approach is being piloted in=20 north-east England, which tries to provide young people with everything = that=20 they need in one place and under one banner, regardless of whether that = is=20 benefits advice, drug and alcohol advice, counselling or therapies.

My first experience of anything to do with employment was through = careers=20 advice in school. I was sent to Marks and Spencer for work experience = because I=20 was =93alright=94 in my class and because the advisers thought that I = would do a=20 good job. However, I never wanted to work there. Careers advice is = absolutely=20 vital. We meet young people all the time who want to do weird and = wonderful=20 things, yet they go to the nearest shop for their work experience. The = system is=20 not meeting their needs. Young people may have a vision of where they = want to=20 go, but they have no idea of which pathway to take to get them there. = That area=20 could be developed.

The fourth point concerns young people in training and FE colleges. = As the=20 inquiry will find out, not all young people leave school and go = somewhere. There=20 are some who do not go anywhere. However, those who do go somewhere need = to have=20 a very good experience to be incentivised to stay. Many of the young = people who=20 drop out do so before Christmas or in January. The numbers are = astronomical, and=20 that is something that must be looked at. For example, I do not know the = policies that are in place to get young people into joinery, but if = students=20 cannot find a joinery placement, they are, all of a sudden, thrown off = the=20 course. As far as I am concerned, training organisations should not take = people=20 on unless they know that placements are available. There are huge issues = around=20 that and around young people dropping out of FE colleges.

We are aware of the underspend last year on pastoral care in FE = colleges.=20 That almost took our eyes out. Our organisation is struggling for money, = and we=20 provide that type of service for young people. That money was given to = FE=20 colleges to enable them to provide pastoral care and look at the life = skills of=20 young people, so that young people with difficulties could go and see = somebody.=20 The benefit of the service is that, as well as dealing with young = people=92s=20 issues, it makes them more likely to stay in college. We believe that = the Youth=20 Forum and other organisations have a part to play in that.

The fifth point concerns those who are identified as NEET; it states = the=20 importance of programmes and services that treat them as important and = that=20 value their contribution. Some existing programmes and services are = absolutely=20 brilliant. However, there are gaps. Young people who are not involved in = anything are the hardest group to engage with. We have to go out on to = street=20 corners just to find them in the first place. Those young people are not = even=20 attempting to get money from the local Training and Employment Agency. = They are=20 nowhere.

Delivering transitional programmes is something that the Youth Forum = can do.=20 We have developed programmes around inspiration and aspiration and = around=20 creative consultation with young people to find out what the issues are. = The=20 Youth Forum has vast experience of working with young people in training = organisations, EOTAS provision and alternative education provision, and = with=20 different communities in other areas.

Lastly, we are the organisation that promotes the voice of young = people. That=20 voice is one of the hardest to hear, but it is one that needs to be = heard. The=20 Youth Forum has a role to play in that.

Ms Caroline McCracken ( Northern Ireland Youth Forum):

I will draw out a few key points that Neil made. The issue of NEETS = is not=20 simplistic. Young people not in education, employment or training have = different=20 issues and face a range of inequalities. There are also serious health=20 consequences for those young people. Yesterday, I read a startling = statistic=20 from a study that was developed in the north-east of England. It said = that one=20 in seven young people between the ages of 16 and 18 who are NEET will be = dead in=20 a decade. That completely blew my mind, and it supports what young = people are=20 telling us in the Northern Ireland Youth Forum. Neil and I are in the = privileged=20 position of working across the country with a vast array of young people = from=20 varied backgrounds, and they are telling us the same thing over and over = again:=20 they do not feel that the support mechanisms are there for those vital=20 transition times, from as early as when they move from P7 to secondary = school.=20

We have a culture whereby young people go through school and adults = tell them=20 what to do, and they are not asked to make decisions for themselves. = However,=20 when they reach the age of 16, they have to make their own decisions and = supervise their own study, and young people are telling us that they are = not=20 prepared for that. They are also telling us about the hedonistic = lifestyle that,=20 apparently, I am an expert on. They are saying that drug and alcohol = abuse is=20 still the foremost problem, and that leads to mental health issues. = Those are=20 some of the reasons why young people do not attend further education = colleges or=20 look for work.

A more basic point is that young people are saying that they do not = even have=20 the aspiration to think what they want to do. It comes down to the issue = of=20 whether they care if they live or die, never mind making a choice on = further=20 education or gaining employment. Therefore, we in the Youth Forum have = worked=20 really hard to challenge that mindset and flag up the problems. We have=20 developed programmes with young people. We sit down with them, and they = explore=20 their own identity, their ethics, their skills and the things that they = enjoy.=20 We also flag up the decision-making process with them, because a lot of = young=20 people do not know how to make decisions. They do not weigh up their = options,=20 they do not think about what is best for them in the long run, and they = do not=20 see that they have to map out a plan.

We have run highly successful programmes with more than 1,000 young = people in=20 socially and economically deprived areas. We have seen young people = excel and=20 gain entrance into work and further education through our work with them = to=20 highlight what makes them tick, how they make decisions and how to work = through=20 the process. It sounds like such a simple thing, but it has a huge = impact. That=20 is what our studies highlight for us.

Neil gave the example of what is happening in Manchester and = mentioned the=20 idea of a one-stop shop with the strategic linking of vital partners. = That shows=20 an acceptance that addressing the NEETs issue requires more than a = one-pronged=20 approach. A variety of issues make a young person NEET. Therefore, it is = about=20 taking a holistic approach, bringing vital partners together under one = roof and=20 making those partners accessible to young people. If they are having = housing=20 issues, mental health issues or benefit issues, they can get all that = support in=20 one place. That is what young people are feeding back to us.

Mr Symington:

Lastly, there is a huge issue for young people who are motivated to = seek=20 employment, because they are now competing in a market with adults who = are=20 extremely skilled and experienced, and they are all applying for the = same work.=20 Without getting into other issues, there is an extremely enthusiastic = and=20 motivated student population who take on part-time, low-paid work to = enable them=20 to get through their courses. The young people with whom we work are = being=20 compared with those guys, so they are already at a disadvantage when = they go for=20 an interview. There is no comparison between somebody who has a lot of = zest and=20 confidence and somebody who is being coerced into even going to an = interview.=20 Volunteering is also a huge issue that will need to be looked at in = future,=20 because it can help young people to build up experience and = training.

The Chairperson:

Thank you very much for one of the most vivacious presentations that = I have=20 heard in a long time, if ever.

Mr Symington:

I am glad that you do not have to take the tenner, by the way.=20 [Laughter.]

Mr McClarty:

Chairperson, he had convinced me, so I wanted the tenner.

Mr Butler:

I congratulate the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson on their = appointments,=20 and I thank Sue, the previous Chairperson, for her work.

I thank the witnesses for their presentation. You deal with = vulnerable young=20 people, and we could come away with the perception that there is no hope = for any=20 young people. What exactly is it that works for you? A lot of young = people get=20 jobs and are very successful. I take on board what you say about the = importance=20 of early years education. That is a common theme. There are many = difficulties to=20 be faced, particularly in the economic downturn. Take alternative = education, for=20 example. What is its success rate? There are young people who have had = difficult=20 histories and backgrounds, but some have been successful and have jobs. = How can=20 we monitor and assess the value of the work that is being done?

Mr Symington:

Chris will laugh at this, but we were having a yarn about that issue = this=20 morning. I do not think any of this is rocket science. I heard the = Chairperson=20 use that phrase just before we came in.

I am from west Belfast, where there are three providers of = alternative=20 education in a small area: Lagan Valley Education Project, Conway = Education=20 Centre and Newstart Education Centre. They have had huge success. One of = the key=20 factors is the relationship with the young person. That sounds = simplistic, but=20 it is about someone treating you as an equal, being on your level, = giving you=20 respect and not telling you off or demeaning you. That said, sometimes a = telling-off is needed; if people are going mad, you need to deal with = it. That=20 element is important, and there are programmes that meet the needs of = young=20 people.

I had a yarn the other day with someone involved in alternative = education=20 provision who talked about how young people who do not fit into the = formal=20 system and have been expelled from school are being encouraged to sit = GCSEs.=20 Already, we are facing the same issue. Such a high value is placed on = those=20 qualifications. However, the important point is perhaps to find out what = the=20 needs of young people are and to meet them. That will impact on all = their other=20 issues.

Mr Butler:

Where else are alternative education providers based?

Mr Symington:

There is one not too far down the road, which is called the Bridge=20 Alternative Education Project. In the north east, where I am based, = there is=20 EOTAS provision, which is formal education. I do not think that it has = had the=20 same success as alternative education has had. I hope that I am not = speaking out=20 of school by saying that. I do not know about the provision of = alternative=20 education outside Belfast. I imagine that it is run on a voluntary = basis.

Ms McCracken:

The Joseph Rowntree Foundation compiled a study on alternative = education. The=20 Committee may know of it. It is about tackling poverty in Northern = Ireland. It=20 flagged up the success of alternative education. It presented some clear = statistics on the fantastic impact that alternative education has on = young=20 people=92s chances of entering further education and gaining = employment.

Mr Butler:

We have so few providers of alternative education in the North of = Ireland.=20

Mr Symington:

Those groups developed on their own initiative; they had identified a = need. I=20 worked in Newstart Education Centre for three years, a long time ago. At = that=20 stage, it got no money from the Belfast Education and Library Board. It = was=20 financed by trusts and foundations. We argued that the money should = follow the=20 students. If a pupil is expelled from a school, the school should no = longer get=20 money for that pupil; it should go to whoever provides the service.

We fought that battle for years, but I do not know whether it was = ever won. I=20 know that the board now gives financial support to Newstart Education = Centre,=20 but I do not know to what extent. I work on EOTAS provision in the north = east,=20 and I know from working in that set-up that it is different, because it = is run=20 by the statutory board. There are teachers, which is not a bad thing. = Youth=20 workers are attached, and without them the service would struggle to = operate.=20 Youth workers build the relationship with the pupils.

Mr McClarty:

I formally welcome the new Chairperson to her position, and I look = forward to=20 working with you over the next weeks, months and, I hope, years. = [Laughter.] I=20 also pay tribute to Sue for all the work she did as Chairperson. I = always found=20 her easy to work with. I have no doubt that the new Chairperson will be = equally=20 =97

Ms S Ramsey:

That is why they took me off it. There were not enough fights on the=20 Committee. [Laughter.]

Mr McClarty:

Your presentation was probably the best one that I have heard for a = long=20 time. Your enthusiasm really came across, Neil and Caroline. I have a = simple,=20 short question. How do you actively try to reach young people who are in = the=20 NEET category?

Ms McCracken:

We actively recruit young people in that category in a variety of = ways. For=20 instance, as Neil said, we go out and speak to alternative education = providers=20 and the EOTAS group. I do not know whether the Committee knows much = about that=20 group. It is usually made up of young people who have dropped out of = further=20 training or education after school because they feel excluded, they are = about to=20 be excluded or they have been excluded from school at some stage. We = engage with=20 them, and we also engage with young people who are not in employment = groups,=20 such as those run by the statutory Youth Service. We also actively = search for=20 groups that are already engaging with those types of young people, and = we run=20 our programmes in conjunction with them.

We run programmes within the forum, but we do not stay with the same = group of=20 young people for long periods. We use a two-pronged approach: we train = youth=20 workers to work with those young people on a long-term basis, and we run = our=20 programmes. We do not stay with the same group of young people for years = at a=20 time; that is the role of the other youth workers. Neil and I are, = therefore,=20 more akin to youth-work trainers.

Mr Symington:

I cover the north-east area, including Newry and Coleraine. I spoke = about=20 workers and organisations that go out onto the street to help young = people. That=20 is their thing. However, they may be helping those young people to = address only=20 one specific wee issue. However, the Youth Forum is about helping young = people=20 to realise their abilities and to see what they can give back. Some of = our=20 programmes centre on community change, which has a huge bearing on many=20 different issues. If young people believe that they can do something for = themselves, they are more likely to do something for other people too. = It is all=20 about giving something back.

As Caroline said, we work with other agencies and organisations. We = work=20 wherever there are young people, such as residential care homes. = Usually, other=20 people are already helping young people in such places, and they are our = points=20 of contact.

Ms McCracken:

We believe in a holistic approach. If young people have other needs = that are=20 not being met by us or by another group, we put other partners in touch = with=20 them. We, therefore, try to work in a strategic and genuine manner to = meet young=20 people=92s needs. Most of the young people with whom we deal do not have = just one=20 issue, but three, four or five, so their situations are not so simple to = resolve. One of our roles is, therefore, to link them with key = partners.

Mr Quinn:

The situation that Caroline has just described is akin to that = age-old=20 question about the chicken and the egg. How do you reach the = unreachable? That=20 is a big hurdle to jump in youth work or in any profession, and it = presents a=20 long-term challenge. Neil talked about the transition from childhood. = Meeting=20 the needs of young people and building up their confidence so that they = can take=20 the first step will enable us to meet that challenge, but that is a = long-term=20 goal. It is hard to reach the unreachable with a short-term quick fix.=20 Street-based youth work and rapping on doors are important, but it is = ultimately=20 up to the young people themselves to take a step towards us. Much of our = work is=20 about building capacity inwards. Making young people feel empowered to = take that=20 first step and to realise what they are interested in is a big issue. If = young=20 people are interested and enjoy something, they will come to us. That = links back=20 to the point about meeting needs at an early age.

Mr McClarty:

Thank you for your presentation. I wish you well in your work. Had = you more=20 funding, you could do much more.

Ms S Ramsey:

Thank you for your presentation. At the outset, I want to say that = the=20 Committee is acutely aware of the NEETs issue. That is probably why all = its=20 members supported the inquiry into NEETs. I want to put that on = record.

I was struck by a number of issues in your comprehensive = presentation. It is=20 useful to hear the statistics. However, it is also useful to hear = suggestions on=20 how to move forward. Everybody is well aware of statistics and the = impact of=20 NEETs.

I declare an interest because my father is involved in the Lagan = Valley=20 Education Project, which is an alternative education provider. I believe = that I=20 have already put that on record.

There is frustration in the community and voluntary sector because=20 Departments do not seem to take a joined-up approach. Although that is = fair=20 enough, we are now in a new dispensation. The inquiry should highlight = that=20 issue and possibly make suggestions. We are in a new era.

Although you receive funding from DEL =97 I am not sure whether you = get funding=20 from the Department of Education (DE) or other Departments =97 has it = ever asked=20 for your input, as a partner, in tackling the issue of NEETs, because it = funds=20 you, or have you simply been involved in the consultation exercise? = Because you=20 do A, B, C, D and E, have civil servants in DEL, your parent company, = asked you=20 how to tackle NEETs?

You said that you are trying to reach people who are unreachable. We = must=20 reach those young people before they become unreachable. We currently = deal with=20 more than 52,000 young people who are categorised as NEET. Do we want to = have to=20 deal with another 52,000 in 2011 and 2012? A joined-up approach is = needed.

There is also concern about unspent pastoral-care money in colleges. = The=20 Committee must follow that up. It is a concern, especially when you = consider the=20 increase in suicides and related matters. It is a mental-health issue. =

We must also tackle the mindset that exists in formal education. = Neil, I am=20 well aware of where you were coming from when you made some of your = comments.=20 People look down on alternative education. I left school at 17 years of = age to=20 take up a trade. That does not mean that I am stupid, but that was the = school=92s=20 mindset. That school has changed. We must break that mindset. People = enter=20 alternative education for a multitude of reasons, not all of which are = bad. The=20 money that goes after the child needs to be channelled. It happens in = some=20 areas. However, it does not happen across the board. Therefore, my = question=20 relates specifically to your involvement with the Department. If you = have any=20 more information about pastoral-care money, that would be useful.

Mr Quinn:

Your first point was about joined-up working between Departments. Our = core=20 grant comes from the Department of Education. In the past, we received = money=20 from DEL; however, we currently do not. Neil and Caroline are employed = through=20 money that we secured from lottery funding. That gives you a snapshot of = where=20 we get our money.

It is encouraging that the Department of Education talks to us about=20 strategies, such as Priorities for Youth and the extended schools = programme. We=20 consult young people on such matters. However, we can go a step further. = Young=20 people have told us that they want to have a say. They want to tell you = guys,=20 Departments, and their schools and training colleges what they need. = Therefore,=20 we would very much welcome more of that engagement.

To answer your question; this is the first time that we have engaged = with a=20 Committee such as this on the issue. Historically, therefore, there has = been no=20 engagement beyond the work that we have done with DE on consultations. = What was=20 your third point?

Ms S Ramsey:

I asked about pastoral-care money.

Mr Symington:

This is how simple it was: in April 2009, an article appeared in the = =91Belfast=20 Telegraph=92. At the time, we were in a team meeting. I nearly dropped = to the=20 ground when I saw the article. I thought, =93Flip, what could we do with = that=20 money?=94 I did not go off the rails or anything. However, having spoken = to young=20 people, we knew what issues existed in further education colleges. I am = not=20 saying anything against further education colleges: I went to one and = quite=20 enjoyed it. However, it was difficult. As you said, young people go to = college=20 from school, where they are pushed. Perhaps they are not pushed, but = there is a=20 lot of discipline and structure. Then, they go somewhere where they are = supposed=20 to sort themselves out. I went to college in Belfast city centre, and, = once I=20 discovered the attractions of the city centre, I found it difficult to = motivate=20 myself and stay tuned in.

There are huge retention issues and huge issues around pastoral care = and life=20 skills development, and even in mental health support, yet we discovered = that=20 there was a big pot of money that had not been spent. I wanted to = pinpoint who=20 was responsible for that. Right away, we thought that organisations such = as ours=20 could use that money to carry out work that is needed. We could sit down = and=20 compile a written response outlining how we think that the money could = be=20 spent.

Mr Quinn:

We became aware of that statistic. Like staff in every voluntary=20 organisation, we do not know where our next wages will come from, = especially in=20 the current economic climate. The situation is as bleak as that.

As Neil said, when we became aware of that money, we could see a = natural=20 linkage between pastoral care and the work that we do through the Big = Deal=20 project in providing inspirational expertise and so on. Therefore, it = was a bit=20 of a shock.

What we are talking about is not rocket science; it is very basic. We = need to=20 go back to the basic needs. There is a need for further education = colleges to=20 focus on personal and social development as well as academic issues; = learning is=20 not all about reading, writing and arithmetic. There are other aspects, = and it=20 is hard for a person to progress without those basic skills.

The Chairperson:

That is a question that we will take up with the Department. We will = ask the=20 Department for a report on the spent and unspent budget allocation = across all FE=20 colleges in time for the next Committee meeting.

Ms Lo:

My background is in social work and community work, so I know the = Youth Forum=20 and the good work that it does very well. You are all great role models = for=20 young people who have fallen through the net and want to do better.

The Committee hosted a meeting of representatives of the voluntary = sector. I=20 do not know whether you were at that meeting, but, at my table, we were = talking=20 quite a bit about the fragmentation in the voluntary sector. A large = number of=20 small projects work in different areas, and they are, perhaps, = duplicating each=20 other. Although those projects are good in themselves, they have = short-term=20 funding, work on a shoestring and do not make the impact that they = should. What=20 is your view on that?

We talked earlier about a lack of partnership between the statutory = and=20 voluntary sectors. How can we make the voluntary sector stronger and = more=20 co-ordinated? I do not know whether we should make it compulsory for = young=20 people who become NEET to go to a group in the voluntary or statutory = sector to=20 help to them get out of that situation.

You provided us with examples, and I have heard it all before. I was=20 devastated to hear about the report that you mentioned; it was = horrendous to=20 hear that one in seven of the young people who are not in employment, = education=20 or training would die within 10 years. What are we doing about that = urgent=20 problem?

Is it better to group the voluntary sector organisations to help = young=20 people? Should it be made compulsory for young people to go to an = organisation=20 in either the voluntary or the statutory sector?

Mr Quinn:

We are sensing a lot of frustration on that issue for a number of = reasons.=20 For as long as I have been involved in the sector, youth work in this = country=20 has been described as fragmented and duplicated. The review of public=20 administration and all the changes that have gone on in the youth sector = have=20 further exacerbated that problem. We are in a situation where if, for = example, I=20 was a greengrocer and Neil was a butcher, I might start selling = meat.

Ms S Ramsey:

You could open up a branch of Asda.

Mr Quinn:

That analogy sums up the way that the sector is; Neil might selling = the stuff=20 that I sell, and I might start selling the stuff that he sells, and, = instead of=20 talking to each other, we would be competing. That is how things work at = present, and how they have worked here historically.

Every stakeholder in the statutory and voluntary and community = sectors, and=20 in even the private sector, has a role to play. However, there is a real = need=20 for us to sit down, talk and get back to basics. Why are we here? Why = did we get=20 involved in youth work in the first place? Was it to help young people, = or for=20 personal gain? I sometimes become very frustrated because of the = competition,=20 and I wonder what the motivation is. We need to meet young people=92s = needs and=20 not be precious about ourselves or our organisations. The real business = can=20 happen only when that baggage is left at the door and people get round = the=20 table.

How that is to be done, I do not know. I feel that, over the next few = years,=20 we will be forced to form coalitions with other organisations. I would = much=20 prefer that to happen naturally. We try to work with others in the same = field. I=20 really like the one-stop-shop idea that Caroline and Neil talked about. = We tried=20 to establish a =93door=94 project in Belfast a few years ago where young = people=20 could access services when they needed them. A lot of work is going on = in=20 England to establish lads=92 and girls=92 clubs. They are = state-of-the-art youth=20 centres with everything under one roof: the connexions service, = counselling and=20 mentoring.

I suppose that we will get away from the fragmented approach when we = start to=20 have conversations that are open and honest. We need to remember the = needs of=20 young people and look towards more joined-up working. From what I hear, = the=20 funding that we are applying for will require us to work more closely, = and that=20 is a good thing. However, we need to make more of an effort to remember = the=20 needs of young people, as opposed to personal or organisational = gain.

Ms McCracken:

Before I took up this post, I worked with a strategist, doing an = audit of=20 youth services in north Belfast. I saw at first hand the amount of = duplication,=20 with six youth clubs in the one area doing the same thing and wasting = money,=20 blah, blah, blah. Before that, I worked in England, where such = duplication just=20 does not happen. As a result of our historical and political conflicts, = youth=20 clubs and youth provision have become territorial. In addition, because = of the=20 way in which such programmes are funded, every programme lasts for only = one, two=20 or three years; there is no strategic approach. The voluntary and = community=20 sector cannot be expected to move forward in leaps and bounds if it can = plan for=20 only two or three years ahead.

Even worse, when I was carrying out that audit, youth workers told me = that=20 they planed their strategies around the targets set by funders, rather = than=20 building programmes based on needs. They are chasing money to exist and = to keep=20 going, rather than identifying the needs and deciding what they will run = and how=20 they will look at the issue strategically across the board.

I was one of those young people who finished a degree at Queen=92s = University =97=20 in my case, it was in English and psychology =97 and ended up working in = River=20 Island, a clothes shop. So, I went to England. I did a master=92s degree = in=20 community and youth work at Durham University and walked straight into a = management post in children and young people=92s services. Youth = services are much=20 more advanced in England because they have not had the same struggles = that we=20 have had in Northern Ireland. They taught me that strategic partnership = working=20 was the key to moving forward and that funding, especially, should be = more=20 strategic and sustainable and not just short term.

Ms Lo:

That would have a much bigger impact in the long run, rather than = everyone=20 doing small pieces of work that are not linked.

Ms McCracken:

Groups do not know what the others are doing. That showed in the = audit. There=20 might have been duplication all over the area, but groups were unaware = of what=20 other people were doing. That was not done on purpose; they just had no=20 link-up.

Ms Lo:

Should the Department be giving more leadership in this area?

The Chairperson:

It is a useful debate, but time is running on, and other people wish = to=20 speak. The Committee could write to the junior Ministers, who have = specific=20 responsibility for issues relating to children and young people, to ask = whether=20 a way forward in the form of a youth strategy is an issue that they = might=20 address in their ministerial subgroup. Are members agreed?

Members indicated assent.

Mrs McGill:

I thank all three of you for your briefing. You presented us with a = paper and=20 you spoke to it; I always find that very helpful. Do young people know = the=20 meaning of the term =93NEETs=94? How do you feel about the use of that = term? I note=20 that you mentioned EOTAS. The teachers are struggling, and that is an = issue.

Mr Symington:

The term =93NEETs=94 sounds a bit derogatory. I heard new acronym = this week,=20 which is GRUB =97 graduate returner, unemployed and broke. [Laughter.] = You might=20 be having an inquiry about those soon.

The Chairperson:

I know quite a few of those.

Mrs McGill:

Should we use the term =93NEET=94?

Mr Symington:

I am not aware of any young people who know that term. I might be = wrong.

Mr Quinn:

Caroline and I had a conversation yesterday about the fact that many = of the=20 youth work professionals that we engage with are not familiar with what = =93NEETs=94=20 means. Those people are involved at quite senior levels.

Mrs McGill:

The term came from England, did it not?

Ms McCracken:

Yes. To be honest, when the term appeared in England, academics such = as Mark=20 K Smith, the editor of Infed, the encyclopaedia of informal education, = and other=20 champions of youth work went nuts about it. They wrote papers in protest = against=20 that terminology.

Mrs McGill:

That is interesting. We should look at that.

Mr Symington:

Was the term formerly =93status zero=94? That sounded quite cool. = [Laughter.] It=20 was a term that was used in the late 1990s.

The Chairperson:

It pigeonholes people.

Ms McCracken:

The term =93NEETs=94 takes away from the real issues that young = people face. They=20 may not be in education, employment or training, but that term deflects=20 attention away from why that is happening.

The Chairperson:

The inquiry had to have some sort of a title. We will take your = comments on=20 board. The majority of the people whom we are trying to influence will=20 understand which young people we are talking about. I am new to this = inquiry,=20 and it seems that the presentations that we have had are looking at the = cure.=20 However, I have not heard much about prevention, which is something that = I am=20 interested in. I serve with Sue and Claire on the Health Committee, and = we have=20 asked it to do some research into the way in which Scotland has moved = young=20 people from the criminal justice system into health provision. What is = the role=20 of families in all this?

Mr Symington:

We could have talked all day about prevention, because we believe = that that=20 is the answer, but we were conscious that we were here to answer = question about=20 young people who are presently NEET.

The Chairperson:

We want to break the cycle. If you have more papers, we would be = happy for=20 you to return at another time.

Mr Symington:

The mental health issue starts when a child is born. The answer does = not lie=20 in providing =A34 million worth of counselling. I would be shot in some = quarters=20 for saying that. However, i t is totally a matter of building resilience = and=20 coping skills and the ability to have emotional intelligence. Emotional=20 intelligence is included in our new curriculum, but the question is how = much=20 will that really be taught. Sexual health is not even being taught in = half of=20 our schools in Northern Ireland.

There are huge issues. Prevention starts with good nursery schooling. = Sure=20 Start projects are doing great work, and there are some other great = projects.=20 Half of these services should not have to exist, in all honesty. It is = often a=20 matter of empire building. Good work with children should eliminate = youth=20 probation services, youth justice services and youth conference = services. It=20 should eliminate the majority of those services because good work with = children=20 will have long-lasting effects. People are not always interested in that = view=20 because the results are too far down the road. It does not look good in = reports,=20 because we will not see a result from that work for another 10 years. =

Mr Quinn:

There is no quick fix. It starts at pre-school level. We were talking = this=20 morning about subjects such as home economics not being on the = curriculum any=20 more. Young people are losing out on life skills, and that is part of = the=20 problem. We have mentioned needs, and we need to recognise what the = needs of=20 young people are and design training, capacity building or whatever is = required=20 to meet those needs. It is definitely a long-term project.

It is interesting that support was mentioned. We carried out a survey = around=20 a year ago and had responses from more than 1,000 young people. They = mentioned=20 the need, at times, for information and support that was presented in a = way that=20 they understood. They also said that they would go to the Internet for=20 information. Some respondents said they would go to family or to = friends, and=20 some said that they would go to professionals such as teachers, youth = workers or=20 social workers. That support and information is crucial. Often, it is = needed in=20 a time of crisis. How do we respond when young people need information, = and how=20 do we deliver it to them? That is a key question.

Ms S Ramsey:

On a point of information for the record, the Education Committee and = its=20 Chairperson have been kept up to date with what this Committee has been = doing.=20 We are well aware that some of the prevention issues are outside our = remit and=20 control. However, the Education Committee is keen to play a part, and I = think=20 that it is important that that is brought to the fore, particularly as = there are=20 new Committee members here today.

The Chairperson:

It is good to hear that there is some co-ordination.

The terms of reference for the inquiry include prevention, so, if you = wish,=20 you could submit further papers to the Committee.

Ms McCracken:

We have brought another paper with us today.

Mr Symington:

Yes; I will give that out.

Ms McCracken:

That paper maps clearly where we think the cultural shift has come = from and=20 our prevention techniques, which are mainly for children of = primary-school age.=20

The Chairperson:

Thank you. That will be included in the inquiry report.

Mr Symington:

Thank you very much.

The Chairperson:

We have no further questions. Thank you for your attendance and your=20 presentation.

COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

OFFICIAL REPORT(Hansard)

Inquiry into Young People not in Education, = Employment=20 or Training (NEETs)

14 April 2010

Members present for all or part of the proceedings:

Witnesses:

The Chairperson (Mrs D Kelly):

Mr Chris Quinn ( Northern Ireland Youth Forum):

The Chairperson:

Mr Quinn:

Mr Neil Symington ( Northern Ireland Youth Forum):

Ms S Ramsey:

Mr Symington:

Ms S Ramsey:

Mr Symington:

The Chairperson:

Mr Symington:

Ms Caroline McCracken ( Northern Ireland Youth Forum):

Mr Symington:

The Chairperson:

Mr Symington:

Mr McClarty:

Mr Butler:

Mr Symington:

Mr Butler:

Mr Symington:

Ms McCracken:

Mr Butler:

Mr Symington:

Mr McClarty:

Ms S Ramsey:

Mr McClarty:

Ms McCracken:

Mr Symington:

Ms McCracken:

Mr Quinn:

Mr McClarty:

Ms S Ramsey:

Mr Quinn:

Ms S Ramsey:

Mr Symington:

Mr Quinn:

The Chairperson:

Ms Lo:

Mr Quinn:

Ms S Ramsey:

Mr Quinn:

Ms McCracken:

Ms Lo:

Ms McCracken:

Ms Lo:

The Chairperson:

Mrs McGill:

Mr Symington:

The Chairperson:

Mrs McGill:

Mr Symington:

Mr Quinn:

Mrs McGill:

Ms McCracken:

Mrs McGill:

Mr Symington:

The Chairperson:

Ms McCracken:

The Chairperson:

Mr Symington:

The Chairperson:

Mr Symington:

Mr Quinn:

Ms S Ramsey:

The Chairperson:

Ms McCracken:

Mr Symington:

Ms McCracken:

The Chairperson:

Mr Symington:

The Chairperson:

OFFICIAL REPORT
(Hansard)